Overcoming Gender Bias with Lindsey Mignano

In this episode of Lawyer Business Advantage, we have a conversation with Lindsey Mignano of Smith Shapourian Mignano about gender bias: what it is, how it’s impacting attorneys and how women can overcome gender bias to become rainmakers. Listen to powerful insights from this fierce female founder!

Alay Yajnik: [00:00:34] Welcome to Lawyer Business Advantage, your source for biz dev tips, wisdom and inspiration. I’m your host, Alay Yajnik. We’re unleashing your inner rainmaker in three, two, one.

Alay Yajnik: [00:00:49] It’s my pleasure to welcome to Lawyer Business Advantage Lindsey Mignano. Lindsay is a shareholder at Smith Shapourian Mignano in San Francisco. Lindsey, welcome to the show.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:01:02] Good. Thank you so much for the warm introduction. I appreciate it.

Alay Yajnik: [00:01:06] You are most welcome. And it was a delight to meet you at the Bar Association of San Francisco and to have known you for a few years. I’ve been really impressed with how you’ve marketed your firm and how your firm has grown. So congratulations on all your success.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:01:19] Thank you so much. Very flattering, I appreciate it coming from you.

Alay Yajnik: [00:01:24] Well, it’s well deserved. And you and I have known each other for quite a while, but our listeners probably don’t all know you just yet. So if you wouldn’t mind, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice in your law firm.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:01:38] Sure. Well, listener, my name is Lindsey. I am thirty five years old. I am an owner of a small four woman firm here in San Francisco that does a lot of corporate work for startups, technology companies and small businesses. I’m originally from Hawaii. I came here to go to school for college. I went to Stanford here in Palo Alto. And then followed up with Hastings here in San Francisco. So I’ve been a Bay Area girl for at least half my life now. I live and work here in San Francisco, specifically our offices in the South of Market area at Spear and Howard and I’m here in South Beach neighborhood with my husband and my two cats. Other than that, I graduated from law school in 2010 and practiced at a couple of firms before starting my own law firm in 2016 with my two law partners, one of whom I’ve known since 2007, who was my first very first friend in law school and the other who we collectively both met at our first job in 2011, I believe. So we’ve all known each other for a while and we just recently hired an associate with an M&A background, Sixth year from Covington.

Alay Yajnik: [00:02:57] Fantastic. That’s that’s great to hear, Lindsey, and congrats on hiring the associate. And that was something you were working towards for for a long time now.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:03:05] It was a long go. Yeah.

Alay Yajnik: [00:03:06] Yeah.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:03:06] Finding the right person takes a while.

Alay Yajnik: [00:03:08] It does. It does. And you and I have known each other for a few years. I can’t even remember where we met. Do you?

Lindsey Mignano: [00:03:19] I think we would have met at the Bar Association of San Francisco, so generally speaking. I spend a lot of time there. I’m on the Barristers Board of Directors and for the past four years, I’ve either chaired or vice chaired a few sections and executive committees for the Barristers. So I’m always there and I believe you are quite frequently networking with us as well and presenting at the Bar Association. So I think that’s kind of where we first got acquainted with each other, probably.

Alay Yajnik: [00:03:48] I know you’ve been really helpful in arranging for me to come in and do speaking engagements for the bar. So that’s –

Lindsey Mignano: [00:03:54] Absolutely we love those.

Alay Yajnik: [00:03:55] I do too. And one of the ones that, I don’t know that I’m going to forget anytime soon – This has got to be easily my top three presentations I’ve ever done, and that’s including the workshops that I do – This was a lot of fun when we did the the Fierce Female Founders panel.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:04:14] Absolutely, and I was just going to say, that’s been one of the most well-received CLEs at the Bar Association, and they do replay it a lot and they would like us to come in and do a recurring presentation because it’s been that popular.

Alay Yajnik: [00:04:26] Oh, very cool. Well, we’ve got to get that on calendar. I couldn’t make the last one, but I definitely want to make the next one.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:04:32] Yeah. It was very well received. Everyone thought the topic and the presenter and the, you know, the moderator, of which would be you, did a fantastic job. So we should really get that on calendar again.

Alay Yajnik: [00:04:43] I would love to do that. Actually, you and also Valerie Fenchel and Sophie Alcorn are all guests of the show. So it’s great. It’s also set off some fantastic business relationships for me as well. So that the topic of that was really talking about gender bias and and how that really impacted not only women, but certainly with a focus on women. And women law firms. And so one thing I thought that was really interesting is how you have grown your firm while dealing with a lot of that. And so I thought that could be our focus for our topic today, if that’s OK with you.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:05:19] Absolutely.

Alay Yajnik: [00:05:21] The first question I have is, you know, this is obviously not a CLE talk, so it’s going to be a little bit more informal. But what do you consider to be gender bias or gender discrimination?

Lindsey Mignano: [00:05:31] I think people have very alternate definitions. But at the very basic level, I consider it when you treat someone differently, whether it’s intentional or not, because of their gender. That would be, to me, sort of bias.

Alay Yajnik: [00:05:45] It’s one of those things where I suspect even if people are struggling describing it, you would probably know it when it affects you.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:05:53] Absolutely. My number one question to myself especially. Because gender bias can be so implicit or behind the scenes or not obvious. My number one question to myself when I’m confronting it is, “If I were a man, would this have happened to me?” or “If I were a man would that person have asked me to do this?” And that is usually my gut test in terms of figuring out whether I’m being either stereotyped or being asked to do something that’s gender conforming because I am a woman.

Alay Yajnik: [00:06:27] And how does or how has, I should say, how has that kind of discrimination affected you in the past?

Lindsey Mignano: [00:06:33] Yes, I think we’re all still dealing with gender bias in 2020. I will say, you know, unlike some of the other panelists that the female founders presentation, I haven’t experienced too much of the very explicit gender discrimination or gender bias. For example, I’ve never been not hired because of my gender. I’ve never been, you know, a survivor of sexual harassment or sexual assault. There has never been anything in my life that has risen to the most egregious level of sexual or gender bias or discrimination. So for me, you know, what I’ve encountered has been much more subtle.

[00:07:16] For example. One of the things that I think will always be hard for me to forget is one of my reviews by an older white, maybe mid 60s, mid 50s male partner of a practice, giving me some feedback that it was something along the lines of…that, “When I’m happy, I want you to be happy. When I’m not feeling good or when I’m sad, I want you to be sad. I want you to mirror my emotions.” And it was that sort of comment as feedback that he thought I could do better at in the work environment, which would make him feel more comfortable with me if I was sort of like a reflection of his emotions. And I think to me, that was really interesting on a number of levels. And he certainly didn’t mean it to be insulting. It was really more of a a way that he thought I can better relate to clients or relate to other men like him. And for me, that was incredibly insulting because it had the connotation that I did not have my own personal emotions, that I was a puppet for his emotions and that he wanted me to be reflective of that. And I thought to myself after the review that, “If I were a man, if I were his male associate, would he have asked him to do the same?” And maybe the answer is “yes.” I can’t say for this person whether that would have been the same. But I can say that honestly as a woman, it did make me look twice.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:08:43] That’s just one instance. The other instances are also very subtle. For example, sometimes I have clients who ask me to do secretarial work as a lawyer. And so generally, we serve as outside general counsel for smaller sized businesses, sometimes companies who are working with a team of 10 and not really a great secretary. And so when a CEO asks me to “Hey, can you copy and paste that into a Microsoft Word document and then put my letterhead on it and then send it back to me?” That’s also, despite whether or not I’m getting paid hourly for this, somewhat insulting to me, because it’s it’s not what I do. And if I’m creating a relationship where I am your help rather than your counsel. And so I’ve been better about pushing back on those kinds of requests and suggesting that people hire secretarial staff, even if they will say, “Well, we’re paying you by the hour. Can’t you just do it?” And, you know, my response that I’ve learned over the past four years of owning my business is that it does set up a weird dynamic between lawyer and client, which sometimes makes the lawyer look a little bit more of a secretary and undermines her worth. So for me, I try not to do as much secretarial or admin things. I try to have them do it themselves or hire accordingly, even when budgets are tight, because twenty five dollars an hour for a secretary is a lot cheaper than my hourly rate. I don’t understand why more of them don’t do it.

Alay Yajnik: [00:10:14] Well, that’s that’s a very appropriate, logical argument. But, you know, emotionally, they’re putting you – they’re casting you into a role probably because of your gender. That’s just completely inappropriate.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:10:28] Absolutely. And I do try to call out these situations when I can, when I’m in a position of power to do so.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:10:35] Obviously, you know, my one regret is that I never called out that partner back in the day for giving me that feedback, which was strong feedback for him. He definitely was thoughtful about it. He definitely – it was something that bothered him about working with me. And I never I never asked him, you know, are you making me the bearer of your emotions or the reflector of your emotions because you have a male female dynamic. And that’s part of the dynamic that’s on this team where you’re my boss and I’m your female associate and I have to step to and mirror your your thought processes and emotions, regardless of whether I feel the same way.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:11:11] I never had the position of power to call that out as an associate. I have regrets about not having conversations like that more frequently in my youth or in my coming of age as a lawyer. I think now at this point at 35, having owned my own law firm, I do think I’m in a different place and a different power dynamic with the clients that pay me to do work for them. And I can work for them if I want to or not, if I want to. So that makes it a lot easier to call out. And it’s a privilege that I’ve I’ve come to really appreciate owning my own law firm.

Alay Yajnik: [00:11:53] You know, a lot of that is – now you feel like maybe – you have the luxury to say no and that they would actually be lucky to work with you and that can really… When I got to that point as a coach, that really boosted my confidence as well. And I expect that would happen anyone that gets into that in that situation.

Alay Yajnik: [00:12:10] A lot of this podcast is really about business development, and I would think that gender discrimination could be really acute in the business development situation. You’ve got networking where you’re trying to build relationships with people and all those people, you know, they may or may not take you seriously. And then you’ve got also potential clients who you are trying to sign. And they would need to view you as their trusted counsel. I would think that gender discrimination could could really potentially sabotage efforts in both of those areas. What’s been your experience, Lindsey?

Lindsey Mignano: [00:12:46] Absolutely, good question. You know, I will say, you know, our firm is very uniquely situated where we’re an all-female women-owned corporate law firm. The number of corporate lawyers who are female and starting their own practice is relatively on the smaller side. A lot of times, you know, even those who are in corporate are not necessarily working with the group that we are, which is, you know, venture funded startups and technology companies, which is an incredibly male dominated field. So it’s dominated by men in terms of the lawyers that work for those men and the men that found those companies, because as we all know, Silicon Valley has a long way to go in terms of promoting corporate associates to partners – female corporate associates to partners in law firms over a thousand, as well as having women founders, you know, take the helm and get funded. So, you know, when I am networking, I’m networking in a predominantly male space, whether it’s other lawyers or other accountants or CFOs that refer to our firm or clients who are generally 90 to 95 percent male. And within that, within both spheres, white as well. And as a minority and a female, that can be very off-putting. However, I think for me, I’m a Feminist Studies major in college. I’m very aware, but not afraid. So I’m aware of the differences. I’m aware that I might stand out in a crowd, but I’m not afraid to. And that’s been kind of the way that I approach things like networking events. I know that I might be one of the few women in the room, but I also know that I’m a really fun time.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:14:39] So generally speaking, I can get along with a lot of different people. I find I genuinely enjoy talking to strangers, and that’s been something that has really helped me to do business develop. I genuinely enjoy hanging out. If anything, by the end of the night it’s 11:00 and I can close at the bar with you and say, “Oh gosh, I have to go home. I’ve completely lost track of time.” I can really enjoy that for like five or six hours. So that’s been really helpful in terms of getting our firm’s name out there to the Silicon Valley service providers and network that we rely upon for our referrals. That being said, I do also recognize as a woman that, you know, my business development, a lot of it just relates around lunches and happy hours and socializing and going on trips and meeting people and whatnot. And I do a lot of that alone. So from a safety perspective, you know, when you’re coming home at 10:30, 11:30, after happy hour or dinner with a bunch of people that you don’t know in a different city that you don’t live in…I recognize that there are legitimate concerns for safety. And so I’m very aware but not afraid of of doing those sorts of activities. But I try to be like I said, you know, I’m conscious of of whatever risk I might encounter.

Alay Yajnik: [00:16:00] And you used this phrase a couple of times: “Aware but not afraid.” And I think that really resonates with me and hopefully will resonate with our listeners, because at the end of the day, you’ve done a nice job of doing the things you need to do. Being very aware of the situation that you’re getting into and are encountering. At the same time, you’re not letting that cause you to change your tactics or your efforts, which I think is awesome.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:16:27] Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, for us, especially when we started with zero clients and we never had a single client from any of our former bosses, like, you know, we had to be open to doing whatever and whenever and going to places and meeting new people. So inherently as women, that’s always a risk. And we…I don’t think any of the three of us have shied away from that sort of challenge. But it is something we also have to do to generate business in a male industry.

Alay Yajnik: [00:16:58] Yes, you do. And one of the things that I’m hoping you can provide some tips to our listeners on: when you are fearless and you’re going out there and you’re doing those things. I mean, I’ve had clients let me know – Women let me know in confidence that they won’t go to certain networking events because they know people were making advances on them and stuff like that. So – and I don’t know if you’ve been in those situations, but no doubt you’ve heard of them. And so what tips do you have for others when they’re in that kind of a situation where they’re out there networking and and someone’s behaving inappropriately to get to get past that and to deal with it and then to get back and get back to doing what they need to do.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:17:39] Absolutely. You know, I’ve never been inappropriately groped or I’ve never had a person come on to me in an unwanted way, and that’s very. It’s either one of two things: either I just don’t perceive it, which – that could be one way I’ve been told, or the other is that it just doesn’t really happen in the context that I’m operating. And I do think that I – I do have a certain vibe that I give off when I am in a truly professional networking capacity. I again, have not had an experience with unwanted advances that I would suggest based on what I’ve heard from other women. My general advice for being treated differently because of gender is to call it out. And then say, “Hey, what you’re doing makes me feel really uncomfortable. I’m not sure if you know this, but,” you know what you said or or how you approached me or how you touched me, “…Made me feel uncomfortable. And I’m just letting you know that from my for my own boundaries and for yours.” And I think calling that behavior out, however awkward, that maybe is always better than never saying anything because there are men who may unintentionally say things or do things that bothers you. And they could walk around the entire earth doing this to other women and it would bother them and and someone calling them out on it say something like, “Hey, I don’t appreciate that you called me sweetie or honey as if I’m your daughter.” Having that conversation educates them and allows them to be more self-aware about the way they’re approaching women. So I think it’s a it’s a good service to every woman that if you’re in an uncomfortable situation as a woman and, whether or not you think it’s intentional by that person or not, to call out the behavior and set boundaries.

Alay Yajnik: [00:19:40] The other nice thing about that is, you know, a lot of times that is unintentional. And if it is by calling it out, you will get an immediate apology. A change in behavior. And as you said, that person won’t do that to anybody else. Hopefully in the future, that’s one. The other benefit is, you know, some of these people are cowards. If you call them out on it, they are going to change their behavior and no doubt apologize to you just because they’re scared of a confrontation and they’ve been caught. And you know it. And that’s going to elicit an immediate behavior change. So that just leaves…you know…the only group that wouldn’t change behavior: those that are belligerent. And that’s a very different situation. What is probably beyond the scope of the podcast. But that is fantastic advice. Just call them out, be really clear. And ninety nine times out of 100, I would expect that would address the issue.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:20:31] Absolutely, I’m a firm believer that we teach the same things that we teach children. I mean, if someone is saying things to you that’s inappropriate or touching you inappropriately applies all the way through, you know, being grown up. Right? And I feel as though a lot of women will say, “Well, Lindsey, that sounds really awkward. I don’t have an awkward conversation with, you know, a possible referral partner.” I don’t – I think you might respect you a lot more for having that conversation. They might consider you a real force to be reckoned with by having the conversation rather than not, because by not having the conversation, you are conceding that you’re just taking it. And I – I feel as though that’s the worst position of power to be in. And my whole goal as a woman at 35, and maybe it’s not been my goal for all of my life, but I think definitely now, is to make sure that whatever I’m doing is empowering and that I don’t feel as though I’m ever getting hosed by someone or something without a good fight on the other side. So for me, it makes sense to call out the behavior.

Alay Yajnik: [00:21:33] Yeah, it really does, because you mentioned not getting the referral. Well, people send referrals to other people whom they respect? Right? And if if they’re not treating a woman with respect, they’re probably not going to send in that referral. The only way that you can turn the tables on this situation is by standing up to them, calling them out, and then that hopefully will build up the level of respect to where they will send you referrals. I could really see that happening potentially.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:22:03] And I guess I haven’t been in the situation. But if I had a person who is making a very explicit advance on me and I had called that out, not only would I not probably want referrals from that guy or that person, but it you know, it’s it also is a very small networking world in San Francisco. I would not want him or his friends to be gossiping about me that I take – I accept certain types of standards and treatment of behavior or behavior. So for me, it’s it’s regardless of the referral or the full potential, it’s reputational. I want people to think that I am someone to be respected and to someone to be conscious of when they’re speaking and interacting with me.

Alay Yajnik: [00:22:52] And as far as clients go. You’re an attorney, right? And so that’s the relationship, it’s client – attorney. We’re not their friends. We’re not their…anything else. We are their attorney. We’re their counselor. We are their trusted advisor. And that’s a very professional relationship that has mutual respect. And it needs to be treated that way.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:23:16] Absolutely, and I do think, you know, that is something that’s hard for for our tech arena. Because, you know, in tech and in in headquarters where people play beer pong and wear T-shirts, shirts to work. Everything is so informal that, you know, there is some informality and some familiarity in the way that we greet each other and talk to each other. So, you know, being conscious of the barriers that have to be in place in order for the attorney client relationship to work the best is something that I’m cognizant of.

Alay Yajnik: [00:23:56] And you and the other attorneys of your firm have done a ton of business development. You built your business from ground zero and literally bootstrapped up to where you are now: as a four attorney firm… And in a very competitive, male dominated situation in San Francisco, Silicon Valley and then in tech…and in doing a lot of startup work.

Alay Yajnik: [00:24:18] So you’ve been through it and it doesn’t get any tougher than what you guys have been through. So what advice would you give to attorneys who are women who are just getting into business development…and one of their areas of hesitation is they’re really concerned about gender bias or discrimination.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:24:37] Mmm-hm. And because I’m a feminist, I always have to acknowledge things. Credit where it’s due and acknowledge where we had some help on the back side. And I think we were uniquely situated to go into this arena. My husband was a venture, Teela’s husband was an executive comp and – I’m sorry – a PR and marketing for startups. And Neda’s husband was an executive executive compensation for startups. So we all had spouses who were in the scene. We had friends, who… Many of whom went to business school and worked in big tech. So a lot of our success was starting from zero is not truly our own. We had a network of Stanford, Cal, Cal Poly Tech, Santa Clara, that really – Hastings – that really pulled in and helped us get started. They sent us referrals. They made introductions to huge referral partners of ours. They introduced us to other VC’s. So there was a lot of that that was coming into play that we cannot really claim credit for. But we can claim credit for is that we we all put in $3,000 as our initial capital contribution to this. Otherwise nine thousand dollar business on day zero. Within three months, we had approximately twenty five mixed flat fee and hourly fee model clients that were really referrals from our friends. And they were all, you know, seed funded startups. And so that’s how we got started.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:26:08] I will say that the thing that helped us to grow was really getting everyone and anyone, even the weird people, because the weird people know normal people. And having a coffee with someone weird or strange and interactions isn’t always a waste of time.

Alay Yajnik: [00:26:25] I’ll remember that the next time we get coffee!

Lindsey Mignano: [00:26:31] That’s not what I meant! But, you know, there are there are people out there, I call them like like “the lurkers”, the ones who kind of stand in the corner and drink by themselves at a networking event that are really difficult to talk with, but otherwise harmless people. Very nice, but a little awkward. I’ve actually I’ll take the, you know, the 15 to 30 minutes and engage with them because, you know, I’m pretty socially competent, my partners are socially competent, but I recognize that not everyone is. So, you know, using some sympathy, some humility and going out to meet people who maybe you don’t initially consider right up your alley or within a possibility of referring your business…meet them anyway because they might know people or their husbands or wives might know people that actually serve you quite well.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:27:21] So I’m not a huge fan of incredibly targeted networking. Although I know that’s sacrilegious to say. I do have you know, friends will say, oh, I only network with lawyers because lawyers give me business. Lawyers give us a lot of business, too, but we meet them in all different types of ways. It’s not only through the bar association. It could be, you know, a spouse of a friend or a cousin of a friend or whatnot. So I really try to go out of my way to meet everyone’s list of, you know, of any of any, you know, practice area or profession if they have any interest in knowing what I do.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:27:54] We also have a lot of online reviews. We collect our reviews on Facebook and Google business with we’ve got about 50 or something now. We have to build that up. But that has also been very helpful because when it comes to hiring us with our five star reviews versus hiring a lawyer at a big law firm who nobody’s ever heard of and who has no track record online, a client at that small, small stage might go with direct, you know, direct to consumer type marketing a lot a lot better now. And this is not for like the big Pandoras of the world or the Googles or the Microsofts. We will lose them hands down only because they probably want a big firm. But for those people who are are, that’s not a priority at their stage at the Seed or the Series A stage…Maybe they are more focused on costs and connections. Then we would be able to market better to them with our client reviews. And then finally, I would say and we do a lot of panels with other lawyers, other accountants, other, you know, PEO providers. And we do them not because they bring us direct business. It’s a great thing whenever that happens, whenever someone from the audience says, “Hey, I’ve got a staff and I’d like to hire you.” Most times it’s not that, though. Most times it’s like the reason why we do the panel is because for one hour we get to talk about something technical and complex. Like, I flip a lot of international companies so that’s what I will talk about at the firm on panels. And that goes to show the service providers that we work with at TriNet or Early Growth Financial or Now CFO or First Republic or whoever…that we actually know what we’re talking about. So for that hour panel, four or five of my peers who are either working the industry as service providers or VC’s in a position of power to refer me business, get to hear that I really know what I’m talking about and I’m able to address the questions that the audience is throwing at me and that, I think, for all three of myself, myself, Teela and Neda has been one of the most helpful ways that we’ve done business in a non-direct way.

Alay Yajnik: [00:30:03] And you can’t buy that kind of credibility. You have to demonstrate it. And that’s what you all have been doing. So I’ve seen you guys speak before. You’re very good in front of the room. And clearly that’s come from a lot of practice. So congrats on leveraging that to your benefit. You’re at an interesting point in Smith Shapourian Mignano…what excites you going forward about the firm?

Lindsey Mignano: [00:30:28] I’m really excited that we’ve all gotten to stay best friends. And I know that’s not a business metric, but that is something that we agreed about when we were first starting off. You know, Teela and I have been best friends since, like now law school and Neda, Teela and I have known each other and been best friends since we met, Neda in 2011. So, you know, for us, the friendship is always more important. It’s the most important. And, you know, if there are business problems, there are always friendship problems, if there are friendship problems there are always business problems. It is hand in hand, part and parcel. And so our relationship with each other has been the most exciting thing for me, because I got to start off a business with two people who I absolutely admire and respect and who I fangirl over all the time. And to be able to actually make money working with your friends, I think to me, has been the most exciting part of this journey. I’m also really excited that, you know, we’re able to offer flexibility like Teela and Neda both had babies two months apart. We’re able to still work and do the things that we love and be really engaged and have children and have interests (I have no children, but I have so many interests)…have interests and children outside of the firm that are important to us that we recognize are important to all of us. And that’s been really. Something that I’m very passionate about and that I really feel like between the friendship and the flexibility is an incentive for us to get up every morning and do really good work because we know we could not have this kind of flexibility in Big Law. We know that the friendship aspect is something that we can never, ever, you know, hire around, delegate. It’s something that is intrinsic to the three of us. So I’m really happy about that. And I’m really happy that we’re at a point now in our firm relationship and friendship where we all feel pretty comfortable enough to scale and to hire and to delegate and and, you know, we’re excited to see where that goes, both from like a business development perspective, but also from the evolution of our friendship to see how how far we can take this this very still very young four year law firm into our, you know, our our futures.

Alay Yajnik: [00:32:51] Well, there is a world of opportunity out there for you. And if three of you are hitting on all cylinders as you are, sky’s the limit. So, Lindsey, thank you so much for being on the show today. Really appreciate it and appreciate your insights on a very delicate yet important topic. So thank you for doing that.

Lindsey Mignano: [00:33:06] Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Alay Yajnik: [00:33:10] That’s Lindsay Mignano with Smith, Shapourian, Mignano in San Francisco. Thanks so much.

Alay Yajnik: [00:33:16] And that’s a wrap. To get more episodes, webinars and free stuff, visit lawyerbusinessadvantage.com. My name is Alay Yajnik. Thank you for listening. And remember, there’s a rainmaker inside everyone, including you.